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THIS IS A RUSH
TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE
UPDATED.
ANNOUNCER: THE POINT WITH GRETA VAN SUSTEREN. Will
he fight his appointment with the executioner? Tonight, the
strategy for representing one of the most hated men in
America. Our POINT panel is watching and so are the human
rights groups.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED
MALE: The United States stands in the same shameful death
penalty league as China, Iran and Saudi Arabia.
(END
VIDEO CLIP)
ANNOUNCER: A Catholic bishop gets married
at a ceremony conducted by the Reverend Sun Myung Moon. What's
next for him and for the Catholic Church? Tonight, we'll talk
with another maverick archbishop, who is pushing the Catholic
Church to the limit. Plus, the prince and the party-pooper.
THE POINT. Now from Washington, Greta Van
Susteren.
GRETA VAN SUSTEREN, HOST: Will he or won't
he? At this point, even Timothy McVeigh's attorneys don't know
for sure. Will their client decide to fight his June 11th date
with the executioner? We may know tomorrow.
Tonight's
"Flashpoint": The McVeigh execution.
Thursday morning,
McVeigh's legal team will ask their client for permission to
file for a stay of execution. The attorneys still don't
believe the government has provided all the documentary
evidence the FBI gathered in the case. They also want more
time to review the 4,000 pages of documents the FBI says it
inadvertently withheld from McVeigh's trial lawyers.
Attorney General John Ashcroft already says he will
fight to make sure McVeigh dies as scheduled.
In a
written statement today, Ashcroft says: "Because these
documents cast no doubt on the surety of his guilt, the
Justice Department will vigorously oppose any attempt to
further delay the imposition of the sentence. A jury
determined that the death penalty is the appropriate
punishment for McVeigh, and failure to carry out that sentence
would deny justice for the victims of this crime and for the
American people." But the McVeigh execution is drawing
international criticism. Amnesty International singled out the
McVeigh case today in accusing the U.S. of hypocrisy when it
comes to human rights.
(BEGIN VIDEO
CLIP)
WILLIAM F. SCHULZ, EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR, AMNESTY
INTERNATIONAL: If Timothy McVeigh or anyone else had been
convicted of being a serial rapist, no civilized person would
suggest that his punishment should be to be serially raped by
officials -- officials of the government as punishment for his
crime. Similarly, had he been a torturer but not killed his
victims, no civilized person would suggest that he should be
tortured in return.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VAN
SUSTEREN: And just to complicate matters even more, agents at
the FBI's Oklahoma City office are defending themselves
against allegations of mishandling evidence. Four agents have
told CBS that evidence in several cases, including the
Oklahoma City bombing, was ignored or not documented. Here's a
sample of the FBI's damage control.
(BEGIN VIDEO
CLIP)
RICHARD MARQUISE, FBI: It's not like we're
getting blood here and somebody didn't analyze the blood and
it spoiled. I'm not aware of any evidence that was lost as a
result of the evidence being unprocessed.
(END VIDEO
CLIP)
VAN SUSTEREN: Is the FBI its own worst enemy? And
what kind of legal strategy do you pursue when you're
defending one of the most hated men in America? Let's ask my
guests.
Although he's no longer on the case, Stephen
Jones was McVeigh's attorney during his trial for the Oklahoma
City bombing. He joins us from Enid, Oklahoma. And in Santa
Barbara, California is defense attorney Gerry Spence.
Welcome to both of you. And first to you, Stephen,
what do you expect the decision to be tomorrow from Timothy
McVeigh? Will he tell his lawyers to proceed? And if so, why
the change of heart?
STEPHEN JONES, FORMER MCVEIGH
ATTORNEY: Yes, I believe he will tell his lawyers to proceed,
and I think the change of heart is brought about in his own
mind by the fact that has been a significant embarrassment to
the federal government and to the Federal Bureau of
Investigation, and there's no reason to throw in the towel at
this point.
VAN SUSTEREN: Stephen, in terms of this
client -- and clients are very different -- is this a client
who runs his lawyers, or do the lawyers have a tremendous
influence on his decisions? JONES: Well, I have to be frank
with you -- and I can tell you this because he waived the
attorney-client privilege -- he was a difficult client. He was
his own worst enemy. He was an obstruction to our effort, and
he tried to run the show. That's why I quit representing him
after the trial, because I didn't feel I could control him.
And I think he wants to be seen as be being in charge
now.
But having said that, he has very competent and
capable lawyers. Some of them he has known for as many as five
years. And my hope is that what has occurred will give him a
renewed confidence in their abilities to advise him correctly.
VAN SUSTEREN: Gerry, you've been around the block a
lot in criminal defense cases. If you were his lawyers, tell
us exactly what you'd be telling McVeigh tomorrow morning when
you met with him.
GERRY SPENCE, DEFENSE ATTORNEY:
Well, the first thing I'd want to know is: "Do you want to go
ahead with this?"
If he says: "Yes, I want to go ahead
with this. I don't want to die. I want this matter tried. I
want to play this out," then the next thing you have to say
is:
"Well, we really haven't had time to look at all
of these documents." How in the world can you understand and
digest 4,000 documents in 30 days? Let me give you an example,
Greta. Supposing that you're going to take a nice book down to
the beach and read it, a nice mystery novel, 400 pages. Well,
how long does it take you to read a 400-page novel? And if you
read it word for word to digest it and to fully understand all
the nuances of the author?
Well, this is a -- 4,000
words would be like reading 10 novels without having the
opportunity to follow up any of the leads that are set forth
in 4,000 documents.
So you know, when Ashcroft says,
"We're going to go ahead, we've given him plenty of time,"
what we're really saying is that we've -- "You caught us,
here's the documents, now let's get this over with before you
catch us in anything more."
VAN SUSTEREN: All right,
Gerry. Suppose instead he says, "I want to die." He looks you
right in the eye and says, "You're my lawyer, I want to die,
that's it." What do you say to him at that
point?
SPENCE: You say goodbye.
VAN SUSTEREN:
You don't try to change his mind?
SPENCE: Well, you
know, you -- you have to -- you have to respect a person's
life and what he wants to do with it. We all have -- we should
all have some control over what we want to do with our lives.
This man -- this man did something very horrible. But at the
same time, he is still a human being and we have to respect
that. VAN SUSTEREN: And you don't try to lean on him and say,
look, reconsider this, this is a chance that maybe, you know,
maybe we can beat this?
SPENCE: Well, sure, you try --
you give him whatever -- you give him whatever assurances you
can and try to explain to him that maybe this would all
change. But remember, his attorney -- an attorney has an
agenda, Greta, and the client has an agenda. The attorney
wants to win his case, he wants to see his client get all of
his rights, he wants to see due process done. Stephen Jones
wants to come out of this case appearing and being a competent
and respected attorney.
On the other hand, McVeigh has
a different agenda. His agenda may be "I want to come out of
this as a martyr" or "I want to be seen as the sole mastermind
of this" -- "I want to be seen as a great American hero in
this kind of twisted mind that he has."
And so although
I think there is pretty competent evidence -- and Mr. Jones
will certainly -- will back me up on this -- there is pretty
competent evidence that there were others involved in the
case, I think McVeigh wants to ultimately say let's get -- may
want to say, "Let's get this over before they discover that
there were others in this, that I'm really not the hero that I
was cut out to be."
VAN SUSTEREN: Steve -- Stephen, is
there anyone else involved in this, in your mind, other than
those who have been prosecuted so far?
JONES: Yes. And
I -- and I agree with Gerry that what he's trying to do is to
protect the others and enlarge his own role.
VAN
SUSTEREN: Stephen, you know, when I looked at him in the
courtroom, he seemed so cold and calculating. There doesn't
seem to be anything redeeming about him. When I saw all the
people, the victims, the relatives coming in the courtroom, he
seems cold and calculating. What -- what was he like to work
with?
JONES: Well, he wasn't like that at all. I mean,
the courtroom appearance was a kind of a mask, although I
don't think it was a contrived one. I think he was basically
at parade rest, as you would say in the military.
But
to meet him and to work with him, he was quite pleasant. He
was an extrovert. He's jovial. He has a sense of humor. He can
absorb information. And so, that was all to the
positive.
But I do think Gerry is absolutely right, and
he's pinpointed it. His agenda is different from his lawyers.
He will go along with it as long as it embarrasses the
government, but...
VAN SUSTEREN: Stephen -- go ahead.
Stephen, give me your odds. Do you think -- you know Judge
Matsch. Likely to postpone this execution?
JONES: I
think...
SPENCE: I think... (CROSSTALK)
SPENCE:
Excuse me. Go ahead.
JONES: I think there's
(UNINTELLIGIBLE) chance he will.
VAN SUSTEREN: You
think he will?
SPENCE: I think there's a great chance
that he will. You see, one of the things that we see in cases
like this is that -- again, somebody else like Mr. Ashcroft,
Attorney General Ashcroft, has a different agenda. His agenda
isn't to see that justice is done. His agenda is to -- is to
assuage the power of the people out there, a massive power of
the people, who are saying: Let's kill this man. Let's get it
over with. Let's kill him. Let's kill him.
And Ashcroft
is saying, well, I gave you 30 days, that's enough to fulfill
due process, so let's kill him. And the judge, on the other
hand, has a different agenda.
You see everybody has a
different agenda. The judge's agenda will be, I need to
satisfy my own conscience and to make certain that due process
has been done here.
VAN SUSTEREN: Let me ask Stephen.
Stephen, we only have 15 seconds left. How mad do you
think Judge Matsch is that these documents showed up on May
11?
JONES: He won't be happy and he will want to
respect and protect the integrity of the process. And if he
has any doubt about it he'll stop the clock.
VAN
SUSTEREN: Is he the kind of judge, though, Stephen, that gets
furious at the lawyers when this happens, or will he be rather
dispassionate about it?
JONES: Believe me, Judge
Matsch can have a temper.
VAN SUSTEREN: All right, my
thanks to Stephen Jones, and of course Gerry Spence, for
joining us.
We're going to change gears pretty
drastically when we come back. Stay with us as we talk love,
marriage, and an ordained Catholic
archbishop.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
VAN SUSTEREN: If
there's one thing the Catholic church doesn't like, it's a
loose cannon, especially among the clergy. And the
denunciations have come thick and fast since Archbishop
Emmanuel Milingo married a Korean physician during a group
wedding last Sunday in New York.
The ceremony was
conducted by the Reverend Sun Myung Moon of the Unification
Church. There were no "best wishes" from the Vatican. A
spokesman said Milingo "could not be considered a bishop of
the Catholic church" and would be subject to foreseen
sanctions, namely excommunication.
This isn't the
archbishop's first run-in with the Vatican. His services,
revivals and exorcisms have gotten him in hot water before,
but not like this.
Joining me to talk about Milingo,
and about dissent within the Catholic church is another
maverick. Archbishop George Stallings also was married during
last Sunday's wedding ceremony. He has incurred the wrath of
the Vatican for some of his own preaching and teaching. He was
excommunicated after forming his own breakaway movement, the
African-American Catholic Congregation, in 1989. Reverend
Stallings joins me from Boston.
Welcome, Reverend.
REV. GEORGE STALLINGS, FOUNDER, AACC: Thank you very
much, Greta.
VAN SUSTEREN: Reverend, first of all, was
is going to happen to this archbishop? What is the Vatican
going to do?
STALLINGS: Greta, just as I
ex-communicated myself almost 12 years ago when I formed an
autonomous independent and African-centered Catholic
expression of the Christian faith, Archbishop Emmanuel
Milingo, by getting married, in effect has ex-communicated
himself from the Roman Catholic church. The Vatican has not
ex-communicated him.
VAN SUSTEREN: Why didn't he just
leave the Catholic church and get married? It appears he sort
of snubbed the Vatican.
STALLINGS: Archbishop Milingo
did not snub the Vatican, Greta. The point is the Vatican left
him. The Vatican did not appreciate Archbishop Milingo's sense
of inculturation and worship -- the gift that he had received
from God and the holy spirit, such as healing and exorcisms,
as well as his ability to reach the people of Lusaka, Zambia,
in a way that Eurocentric cultural hegemonic worship forms
cannot do.
VAN SUSTEREN: Did he notify the Vatican
before his marriage this weekend that he was going to get
married?
STALLINGS: I had an opportunity to have
several conversations with Archbishop Milingo before he and I
were both joined in marriage with our respective spouses prior
to his decision to make this move and his point was, it is
important to him to see his work carried on. It is important
that he have children and that there be blood lineage to carry
on his work.
I understand that he did inform the
Vatican that he was making this move out of conscience,
following God's will, and not the dictates of man. So
Archbishop Milingo is still Catholic, very much Catholic in
his mind, and he has every intention to function as a Catholic
bishop around the world and particularly in his own country.
VAN SUSTEREN: Reverend Stallings, I respect thee various
religions of the world, but it's rather curious when people
are sort of set up in marriage. I realize it's done in many
countries, but you had an arranged marriage over the weekend
as well, is that right?
STALLINGS: The point is I did
marry a beautiful woman from Okinawa, Japan, who has been in
the United States for almost five years, who went to live in
Harlem, in the heart of the black community, who put
extensions in her hair and walked among the people of Harlem
all alone. Archbishop Milingo married a Korean physician.
But the point is, is that while Archbishop Milingo may
have met his bride only four days prior to his marriage, I had
met my bride several months ago and see she and I had not only
fallen in love, but we were focused on marrying and it just so
happened that the Reverend Sun Myung Moon in his wisdom and
with his metaphysical senses matched us perfectly, and I'm
thankful to him and Mrs. Moon and thankful to God that I have
been renewed and made whole.
VAN SUSTEREN: Reverend,
let me read to you a quotation and tell me if you were
correctly quoted: "I chose a Japanese wife because they are
dedicated to their husbands, they are gentle and they work
with them." And you added that they don't desire to "party all
the time." Is that your quote?
STALLINGS: That is my
quote and I meant that specifically and solely in regards to
the person God had preordained for me, my wife, Soyami
Kamimoto. I did not mean that as a reflection on Japanese
women as a whole or and especially, I did not mean it as a
reflection in regards to my sisters, black women.
I
love black women and I believe that black women are the most
beautiful women on the face of the earth. Now, someone may
interpret -- my wife may get on my case and say, what, you
don't think I'm beautiful anymore? Yes, Boo, I think you are
beautiful -- that's what I call her -- but the point is, I
have the deepest love, respect and appreciation for black
women. I have a black mother and four sisters.
So the
point is, Greta, is that for whatever reason this was the
woman that God had prepared for me, but it is no indication at
all that I'm abandoning black women or do not think that black
women are the most beautiful women in the world. And they are,
in my estimation.
VAN SUSTEREN: Reverend, do you
expect that the archbishop is going to have any contact from
the Vatican in connection with his marriage over the weekend,
or is he just separating himself from the Vatican?
STALLINGS: Well, I'm sure that the Vatican would want
to have some kind of -- would want to entertain some kind of
conversation with Archbishop Milingo, because he is one of
their own, was very high up in their hierarchical rank. But
point is, Greta, he has, in many ways, severed his ties with
the Roman Catholic church, even though he desires to remain
Catholic because the Roman Catholic church does not allow for
the marriage of its clergy, particularly its bishops without
exemption.
VAN SUSTEREN: Then why didn't he -- if he
wants to remain a Roman Catholic it seems to me he could have
left the priesthood he could have stopped being an archbishop,
become a civilian in essence, and then he could have married
and he wouldn't be removed from the church. Am I wrong?
STALLINGS: Greta, the point is, he has every right to
embrace Catholicism, just as I have the right, just as anyone
else who desires to create an expression of Catholicism that
reflects who they are in their culture.
VAN SUSTEREN:
But he can no on longer be an archbishop.
STALLINGS:
Yes.
VAN SUSTEREN: How do you figure that?
STALLINGS: He is an archbishop, very much an
archbishop. Once a priest, always a priest. Once an
archbishop, always an archbishop.
The Vatican may not
recognize him, but God recognizes him. And Greta, the point is
he will be judged by God, not by man, not by woman. So, the
archbishop is very right in holding on to his Catholicism,
just as I have done, and creating a viable Catholic
alternative. He and I will work together, not only to
administer in Africa, but we will create a Catholic church
that will welcome back all of these former Roman Catholic
priests who have also married, but who have very valid
ministries.
That's the new opportunity that awaits
Archbishop Milingo, and me and every Roman Catholic who
desires to marry.
VAN SUSTEREN: Reverend George
Stallings, thank for very much for joining me this evening.
STALLINGS: My pleasure.
VAN SUSTEREN: It isn't
quite as dramatic as "Henry IV, Part One," but now playing in
the British tabloids: "Charles III, Part Two." We'll consider
some royal hard feelings after a quick break and our MONEYLINE
update.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
VAN SUSTEREN: Love
is never having to say you are sorry.
Tonight's
"Flashpoint": a royal problem in the kingdom.
Last
week in the "Daily Telegraph" newspaper in Britain, it was
reported that Prince Philip lacked confidence in his son
Charles' ability to be an effective king. To be precise, the
article said that Prince Philip felt prince Charles to be,
"precious, extravagant, and lacking in dedication and
discipline needed to be king."
No sooner had the
newspaper hit the streets than Prince Philip denied the
remarks. He also got on the phone to apologize to his son, and
followed up with a letter to him. Apparently, Prince Charles
was not particularly happy about the matter. His aides put out
the word that he was "sad and upset." Those aides also said
that Prince Charles had scrapped plans to write a warm tribute
to be delivered at his father's 80th birthday party.
My take: I have no idea who is right and who is wrong,
or what the true facts are. But Prince Charles should just
forget about it. As a present to his father, he should deliver
that tribute for Prince Philip's 80th birthday. Life is too
short.
Let me know what you think. Send an e-mail: to
askgreta@cnn.com. That's one word, askgreta.
And
there's more on the royal family just ahead: Kittey Kelly is
among the guests on "LARRY KING LIVE."
I'm Greta Van
Susteren in Washington. See you tomorrow.
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